St George's Hill Golf Club

Discussions re V3 1st Green

 

From: David Judd [djudd@norex.co.uk]
Sent: 08 December 2010 10:04
To: 'mike.hall1@mac.com'
Subject: RE: St Georges Hill Golf Club - 1st Green

Mike

Me on the CPG; no. First, you and Simon S are much better equipped – I think it is hoped that Simon could be long term and take over from Frank as ‘Chairman’.

Either way if I had come on for this year I would be stepping down next as I do not believe the Vice C or Captain should be on the CPG, let alone chair it – so that would take away from the principle of longer standing continuity which I think is so important for the CPG.

Hopefully I can contribute sufficiently from committee etc.

I am playing McDonnell Bowl on Saturday morning and probably unable on Sunday I am afraid.

On this matter of the 1st , if Frank does have his suggested way I think it would be such a great pity and the loss of a great opportunity that it probably won’t get done in the future at all.

DJ

PS I notice that the saplings got replanted on the 17th!

 

 

From: mike.hall1@mac.com [mailto:mike.hall1@mac.com]
Sent: 08 December 2010 09:51
To: David Judd
Subject: Re: St Georges Hill Golf Club - 1st Green

 

David

Thanks for your email. Fortunately we've just about broken the back of the Eu stuff so I should get my life back!

I want to speak to Frank about this and have asked to see / speak to him over the weekend about it.

On another matter, why aren't you on the Cpg now? I thought that had been agreed?

Are you planning to play this weekend?

Cheers

Mike

Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

From: djudd@norex.co.uk

Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 19:55:39 +0000

To: <mike.hall1@mac.com>

ReplyTo: djudd@norex.co.uk

Subject: Re: St Georges Hill Golf Club - 1st Green

 

Mike
Sorry to hear about your problems and hope you sort it out ok. Sounds horrendous!

Don't worry about it if you don't have time but if you get a chance it would be great.

Alls well with me otherwise, thanks.
DJ



 

From: mike.hall1@mac.com

Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 19:39:01 +0000

To: David Judd<djudd@norex.co.uk>

ReplyTo: mike.hall1@mac.com

Subject: Re: St Georges Hill Golf Club - 1st Green

 

David

Essentially no. Following on from your email I sent Richard a message asking me to call him re the 1st green in general and I haven't heard back from him.

To be honest I've been a little distracted of late: we are being investigated at work by the eu competition authorities and have been drowning under the weight of their demands for information. We estimated that their last demand for information would take a minimum of 6 weeks to prepare and they kindly gave us 2 weeks, so things have been rather hectic of late. However, I've just finished my bit and so will get in touch with Frank again and let you know how we go.

Hope all well with you.

Mike

Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

From: David Judd <djudd@norex.co.uk>

Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 15:05:49 +0000

To: <mike.hall1@mac.com>

Subject: FW: St Georges Hill Golf Club - 1st Green

 

Mike

I just wondered if there had been anything further on this?
Regards

David

 

From: David Judd [mailto:djudd@norex.co.uk]
Sent: 18 November 2010 09:20
To: 'mike.hall1@mac.com'
Subject: RE: St Georges Hill Golf Club - 1st Green

 

Mike

Many thanks for this. I have two main comments with which, if you agree please use as counter arguments for the difficulties foreseen by Hawtree and the possibility of a temporary green.

 

1. The three basic principles of moving the green were: half way across, half way up and a little way forward/longer. It is the last that has been ignored. Looking at the plan if the proposed green was moved further back (towards the 2nd fairway) and slightly further right therefore, it would less impose on the current green, if at all. You could also move it further across to the right as the Water main (as it heads towards the 2nd fairway), also moves further to the right thereby giving more room for the new green.

2. Hawtree mentions that the height of the green would be raised 1.5m (from the height of the current green).  I am not sure whether they have built in a ‘MacKenzie hump’ similar but a mirror image to the 10th green. If this was done then while the left hand edge of the new green would be 1.5m higher than the current green the right hand edge could be I would have thought about another 1.2m higher again therefore 2.7m higher than the current green (I wonder what the fall is on the 10th from left to right – I would be surprised if it wasn’t more than 1.2m. This would mean less of a natural slope and therefore less space required to accommodate the slope of rough between the right hand edge and the high point on the right. It would also mean, similar to the 10th, that the approach to the green on the left would need to be quite low but the right hand approach could be quite a bit higher.

 

There may be a fair amount of work in doing this, but I would have thought the expensive part would be getting the plant on site in the first place to move earth and the fact that they are there a little longer to move more would not be so damaging cost wise?

It would also mean there might be a small overlap of the new green over the current but only in the far right corner of the current green thereby leaving the majority (front, and all the left of the current green), in play until we could open the new.

 I hope this makes a little sense.

Please let me know

Best regards

David

 

From: mike.hall1@mac.com [mailto:mike.hall1@mac.com]
Sent: 18 November 2010 01:12
To: David Judd
Subject: Fw: St Georges Hill Golf Club - 1st Green

 

Hi David

Not sure if you've seen this yet, but thought it might be of interest.

All the best

Mike

Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

From: Russell Talley <Russell@hawtree.co.uk>

Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 15:08:49 +0000

To: <pmanthorpe@aol.com>

Cc: <fwrs@btinternet.com>; <mike.hall1@mac.com>; <greenkeeper@stgeorgeshillgolfclub.co.uk>; <steve.flanagan@bupa.com>; <john@stgeorgeshillgolfclub.co.uk>; <roger@lavington.csinter.net>

Subject: St Georges Hill Golf Club - 1st Green

 

Dear Richard

 

Please find an initial plan showing the area of work, contours, limits of work caused by water line easement, for the first green.

 

Format is A3 if you want to print.

 

I look towards comments.

 

Kind regards

 

Russell Talley

 

From: pmanthorpe@aol.com [mailto:pmanthorpe@aol.com]
Sent: 15 November 2010 14:46
To: Russell Talley; Martin Hawtree
Cc: fwrs@btinternet.com; mike.hall1@mac.com; greenkeeper@stgeorgeshillgolfclub.co.uk; steve.flanagan@bupa.com; john@stgeorgeshillgolfclub.co.uk; roger@lavington.csinter.net
Subject: Re: St Georges Hill Golf Club

Hello Russell

Thanks for the information, will await your design with interest.

 

Regards Richard M

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Russell Talley <Russell@hawtree.co.uk>
To: pmanthorpe@aol.com; Martin Hawtree <Martin@hawtree.co.uk>
CC: fwrs@btinternet.com; mike.hall1@mac.com; greenkeeper@stgeorgeshillgolfclub.co.uk; steve.flanagan@bupa.com; julian@castlewildish.com; john@stgeorgeshillgolfclub.co.uk; roger@lavington.csinter.net
Sent: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 12:49
Subject: St Georges Hill Golf Club

Hi Richard

 

We made the ground survey and have been looking at situation.

 

Our findings look like we are not able to move the whole green to the right, in a scenario whereby the proposed green left edge is on the present right green edge.

 

It appears we can move the green to right, with overlap on the present green's right half.  The proposed height would be 1.50m above the present green height.  That said the work area will be quite extensive - as you can imagine its not only the green and the cut to the right, but the fairway approach and beyond the back of the green, side left of green to 2nd tees, that requires integration and flow.  The project would require the green to not be in use, but the hole could still be open with a temporary green 15m south of where the stairs go up to the second back tees.

 

The location of the water main, with its easement restrictions where the ground cut can begin (3m), is having a big impact to move the green.

 

I wanted to inform you of the progress of this and that I will be sending you the plan showing the situation.

 

Kind regards

 

Russell Talley

 

 

 

 

 

From: pmanthorpe@aol.com [mailto:pmanthorpe@aol.com]
Sent: 13 October 2010 14:25
To: Russell Talley; Martin Hawtree
Cc: fwrs@btinternet.com; mike.hall1@mac.com; greenkeeper@stgeorgeshillgolfclub.co.uk; steve.flanagan@bupa.com; julian@castlewildish.com; john@stgeorgeshillgolfclub.co.uk; Philip Hine; Amy Crampton; roger@lavington.csinter.net
Subject: Re: St Georges Hill Golf Club

Hello Russell

 

On behalf of the Club we accept your quotation of the 10th Oct 2010 for the survey work to the 1st Hole and the hire of the survey eqiptment
Please let us know the programme of you visit as it would be helpful if our Greenkeeper could be in attendance.

 

Could you please inform Martin that we are thinking to add 2 bunkers to the left hand side of the 9th fairway and consequently moving the fairway to the right as the original Colt design. We would appreciate his comments.

 

Regards Richard Manthorpe 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Russell Talley <Russell@hawtree.co.uk>
To: pmanthorpe@aol.com; Martin Hawtree <Martin@hawtree.co.uk>
CC: fwrs@btinternet.com; mike.hall1@mac.com; greenkeeper@stgeorgeshillgolfclub.co.uk; steve.flanagan@bupa.com; julian@castlewildish.com; john@stgeorgeshillgolfclub.co.uk; Philip Hine <Philip@hawtree.co.uk>; Amy Crampton <Amy@hawtree.co.uk>
Sent: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:20
Subject: St Georges Hill Golf Club

Dear Richard

 

Russell Talley here, working with Martin on the course improvements.

 

We would like to look at some earthworks scenarios of the proposed green and the fairway approach to it.  When we looked at the 2nd tees and present 1st green in 2008 we didn't need to take topographical information of the old Colt green and the approaching fairway.

 

We'd propose to come out to ground survey all the necessary areas, and come back and do some initial earthworks to review implications and possibilities.  The location of the water main we would estimate on our baseplan from your description  of its location, but it would need to be located in more precision if our initial designs look positive, and we'd need verification of its location.

 

We'd propose coming to ground survey for £525.- plus traveling expenses and VAT.  We would then perform the initial design here in the office and report our findings.  The design process would be also included in the surveying costs.

 

Also, rental of the topographic survey equipment is usually £225-250.-.  Sometimes we can survey another course with the equipment, and then the costs would be shared on the rental.

 

I hope this is useful and we'd look forward to hearing from you in due course.

 

Kind regards

 

Russell Talley

For and on Behalf of Hawtree Ltd.

 

 

 

From: pmanthorpe@aol.com [mailto:pmanthorpe@aol.com]
Sent: 01 October 2010 10:26
To: Martin Hawtree
Cc: fwrs@btinternet.com; mike.hall1@mac.com; greenkeeper@stgeorgeshillgolfclub.co.uk; steve.flanagan@bupa.com; julian@castlewildish.com; john@stgeorgeshillgolfclub.co.uk
Subject: Re: St Georges Hill Golf Club

Hello Martin

Thanks for your prompt reply .

To save any abortive work can I inform you of a water main that runs on the right hand side of the 1st green
It is about 20 m from  the existing green edge and runs in a N-S direction i.e. parallel with the line of the hole

The water board will require a 3m wayleave to its pipe line

 

I hope this information helps

 

Regards Richard M

 

-----Original Message-----
From: martin@hawtree.co.uk
To: pmanthorpe@aol.com
CC: fwrs@btinternet.com; mike.hall1@mac.com; greenkeeper@stgeorgeshillgolfclub.co.uk; steve.flanagan@bupa.com; julian@castlewildish.com; roger@lavington.csinter.net; john@stgeorgeshillgolfclub.co.uk
Sent: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 18:45
Subject: Re: St Georges Hill Golf Club

Dear Richard,
Many thanks for your email.
I like the idea very much. My only concern is how much lower we can drop the green on Colt's site without getting into geological, engineering, drainage, landscape - the steepness of the bank on the right - issues; at least how low can we technically bring it down to avoid the original criticism of the green. Let me have a look at the plan and contours and I will get straight back to you.
Glad the bunkers on the 16th are proving effective.
Kind regards,
Martin

Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

From: pmanthorpe@aol.com

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 07:09:46 -0400

To: <martin@hawtree.co.uk>

Cc: <fwrs@btinternet.com>; <mike.hall1@mac.com>; <greenkeeper@stgeorgeshillgolfclub.co.uk>; <steve.flanagan@bupa.com>; <julian@castlewildish.com>; <roger@lavington.csinter.net>; <john@stgeorgeshillgolfclub.co.uk>

Subject: St Georges Hill Golf Club

 

Hello Martin

 

Please excuse the informality but we have met at the club when you were advising us on the 16th and 22nd Holes

Just a little feed back on the work to the 16th, the new bunkers have worked well and detered all but the brave from trying the short route down the left hand side.

 

With 3 years to our centenary we are looking to produce the course in the best possible way with as much acknowlegement to Colts original design as possible. The  closeness of the 1st Green to the 2nd Tee has always given us some concern especially as the 1st Green is not the best at draining after heavy rain. I am aware that your colleagues looked at altering the 2nd Tees in Jan 2008 but we feel that to solve the problem a more radical plan may have to be adopted.

As you may well know Colts original 1st Green design was on the plateau to the right. This was changed in the early 1930's due to dislike by members.

Our concept is to rebuild Colts original green but at a much lower level and perhaps merge it with the right hand side of the existing green ( mirror image of the 10th Green ) provided the logistics of keeping the hole open can be solved.

 

Could you please give us your professional help on the design issues involved to move closer to Colts original concept for this hole.

If you could give us your initial response relatively quickly to enable us to make a decision in principle,  it would  be greatly appreciated ,as we

would have an aim to undertake the work in Feb/Mar 2011 when we would be able to close the hole for a number of weeks

 

Thank you in anticipation

 

Regards , Richard Manthorpe

 

Course Policy Group